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Conifers, à 2014-04-18 22:07:06, a dit:
Thanks for the extra photos! Yes, clearly Thuja plicata. The bark photos also show typical Thuja plicata bark.
Karlheinz, à 2014-04-18 23:25:14, a dit:
I faced Christoph Michels and the "Kiefernspezi" as representatives of the "Deutsche Dendrologische Gesellschaft e.V." with your determination and asked to comment.



RedRob, à 2014-04-18 16:35:42, a dit:
Summising it is Beech but never seen a bark pattern like this before on Beech? Is this some sort of variant?

MoritzNagel, à 2014-04-18 19:09:02, a dit:
Hi Redbob,

that bark pattern is typical for Carpinus betulus, if I'm not mistaken.

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-18 20:24:20, a dit:
I'd agree with Hornbeam, though the pattern is not really typical unless the tree is smaller than I'd imagined. I've never seen a Beech like that.

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-18 21:22:26, a dit:
Horbaem is the species. Barkpattern is very beautiful but typical for some hornbaem. I don't know why, or howe iit's formed.


TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2013-11-15 17:55:00, a dit:
The historic heights for this tree seem to show the limitations of both hypsometers and lasers. 33m is optimistic, aiming at branches which are arching slightly towards the observer. 27m is much too low, due to the laser hitting low twigs on the near side (the top of a tree with a crown as rounded as this is completely hidden, even from a distance, in summer. Having measured it several times (with hypsometer) before it leafs out, I'm going to plump for 30.8m - though I can't really claim that degree of accuracy.
Jeroen Philippona, à 2013-11-16 00:43:03, édité à 2013-11-16 00:46:48, a dit:
Yes, I think with 31 m you are near the true height of this tree. My 33 m measurement in 2007 with Suunto clinometer was not very accurate. Owen, you should add your 30.8 m measurement also in the system with the right date.

When you visit Kew next time you could measure it again with laser. I also think Wim B. did not hit the tallest branches.

Wim Brinkerink, à 2013-11-16 15:02:11, a dit:
What both of you are saying might well be true. It's not always easy to find the highest one and a mistake is easily made.
krossdal1, à 2014-03-30 10:43:24, a dit:
great tree
RedRob, à 2014-04-17 16:07:40, a dit:
Wouldn't an answer for this tree be to email Kew and ask them to meet you with one of those hydraulic extendable things which men stand in to get up to the crowns of trees to prune? It would give you a view over the top of the crown more and down to the base, that said some of the branches look low and could obscure the view of the laser from some windows.
Conifers, à 2014-04-17 19:14:24, a dit:
That sounds a good idea, offer them £1000 for the costs of using it, and I'm sure they'd do it ;-))
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-17 19:17:58, a dit:
One mistake I made before 2014 is that I didn't add my own length to the measurement. So my measurement must at least be heightened with 1.80 meters.
RedRob, à 2014-04-18 16:30:00, a dit:
I regularly enjoy a walk around the Fountains Abbey estate and the National Trust often have their hydraulic container mounted on the back of a Land Rover out and pruning trees, I imagine that Kew will have something similar. Shouldn't be a difficult job to email them to ask when they might be doing some pruning in that area. If it is to confirm a champion tree they possibly would be quite obliging.
Jeroen Philippona, à 2014-04-18 20:57:31, a dit:
I am sure that it is not that difficult to measure the height of this tree, you just have to get far enough to see the real top: from the north there is an open view from over 100 m to the tree, the top can be seen easily from there.

Visible pour tous · permalink · en
Rayn, à 2014-04-16 08:05:30, a dit:
How far is spring in your area and which trees are first?

Snow have now melted, in almost all shaded places too here, and most trees have developed fresh buds and the willows have formed their catkins.

aubreyfennell, à 2014-04-16 17:54:40, a dit:
Living in Carlow,south-east Ireland at 52'50N and 50 km from the Irish Sea as I do,spring has burst reasonably early

this year. We have just suffered the wettest winter on record with almost 500mm rainfall in Dec to Feb. It usually

is about 170mm for this period.The lowest winter temperature recorded was -2.8c and we had no snow. April has been dry ,sunny and warm and the most common trees such as Quercus,Fagus,Acer pseudoplatanus and Crataegus are almost fully in leaf. Our swallows arrived on the 9th and butterflies such as peacock,red admiral,brimstone,holly blue,small tortoiseshell and green veined white have emerged in the garden but I am still waiting for speckled wood and orange tip. I am still clearing up fallen trees after the most devastating storm[Darwin]in 20 years.On February 12th wind

gusts of 178kms an hour hit the south-west and reached 135kms here in Carlow.Up to 3 million forestry trees were flattened and many of our monumental trees are now gone.

KoutaR, à 2014-04-17 14:21:41, a dit:
Here in Saxony (Sachsen, Germany), the first tree bud burst was about three weeks ago. Now many species have at least half-grown leaves, exceptions are e.g. Quercus, whose leaves are starting to grow, and Fraxinus, which is always the last one. Spring is early in this years. The winter was very mild, with only a few days snow.

A few years ago I wrote down when each tree species come into leaf but I don't find my notes for now. Anyway, Sambucus nigra is always the first one. Other early species include Aesculus, Carpinus, Betula, Sorbus aucuparia and Crataegus.

Maarten Windemuller, à 2014-04-18 09:02:37, édité à 2014-04-18 19:49:57, a dit:
> 40 years I follow the beech leaves at 1 of may. When there is sun shining you can catch those thin silver lines at the borders of the leaves because of the sun lighting the hairs at the borders of the young leaves. Not a day earlier, first of may :). This year two weeks earlier, first time.

As most of the plants & trees: this year the siver lines where at least 2 weeks earlier at surroundings of http://goo.gl/bKPXwt .

Azalea mollis already 2 weeks full orange.

Akebia quinata at de backdoor pergola smells wonderful when you come home late, Rhododendron Cunningham's White next to the letterbox full flowers. Special spring this year.

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-18 20:21:54, a dit:
In southern England, this has been the earliest spring since I first started noting the times trees come into flower (about thirty years ago): about 15 days ahead of the 'average', though the average for the last decade is probably a week ahead of the average in the 1980s. (And yet the spring of 2013 was one of the latest and coldest.) This has also been the first winter in my home-town of Hastings, on the south coast, when there have been no air-frosts at all. The very wet and windy weather has damaged many trees, but of the 1000 or so nationally-important trees I've revisited so far this year as part of my ongoing updates of the Tree Register records, not one has been lost.

Conifers, à 2014-04-18 19:42:36, a dit:
Do you have a close-up of the foliage (and cones if present), please?

Conifers, à 2014-04-18 19:40:09, a dit:
Foliage characters identify readily as Thuja plicata

RedRob, à 2014-04-17 17:27:29, a dit:
Hope to have abit of help with 100% verification for this tree. Emailed Duncombe to ask them to confirm but no reply.

Photo 4, a 32 metre Beech had fallen over winter plus a smaller Sycamore and opened up a window to see this tree. Photo 1, the three tall trees in the centre, the one on the right was definitely Oak when I measured it at 34.6 metres last year. I couldn't see the bases of the other two to hit them with the laser. I think that they were Oak, took photos of the ground underneath and Oak and Beech leaves but I amjust not 100% sure as the Oak and Ash bark patterns on trees on this estate are quite if very similar. I stood 48.2 metres below the right branch tip of this tree doing a horizontal measurement. The laser measured 40.8-41.2 metres for the vertical separation between the tree base and tip. I did over 30 measurements to just make sure that I was not getting deflection, mis-readings from any stray closer twigs between the laser and tree base but got measurements in this range consistantly. No leaves on trees and difficult to get a hit on the tallest twig, right one which was the highest, so if anything it may be abit more than 41.2 metres but I will go with 41 metres.

Are these photos good enough to confirm 100% that this is Oak, the twigs were so high up?

The 32 metre fallen Beech in the photo, the tree just above it is the 36.2 metre Ash, the two Beeches just up to it's right, the front one in 40 metres, very lucky that some of these didn't fall. It is very sheltered from the SW wind at the bottom of this escarpment, surprising that this has fallen (and several other Beeches and what looks like a big Sycamore on the escarpment), there must have been a whirlwind or vortex or something?

Jeroen Philippona, à 2014-04-17 22:04:20, a dit:
Hi Rob,

Better buy a looking glass for identification of high branches. Soon there will be leaves, so identification will be easy. Branch pattern of common oak and ash is very different, so should not be a problem.

A height of 41 m is not amazing for an oak at such a sheltered location, but oak, beech, ash and lime all four can grow to such heights. In Bialowieza there are many pedunculate oaks of 40 to 41 m and some of around 42 m with one over 43 m as heighest measured. This is at a site with rather dry climate and cold winters. There is of cours much less wind in such a far inland location compared to Yorkshire. The very tall sessile oaks in some forests in France are on very favorable sites but perhaps these trees also are genetically of a special quality.


RedRob, à 2014-04-18 16:25:51, a dit:
Hello Jeroen, I corrected the map co-ordinates on Google and that of the 36 metre Ash near it, the crowns on the two trees do not look the same and this tree looks the same as the definite 34.6 metre Oak in front of it, I am 99% sure it is Oak. Even through the laser rangefinder I was still not 100% sure but the leaves on the floor below were Oak and Beech. Oak, Quercus Robur or Ash, it is a Britain and Ireland champion for height.

Tim, à 2014-04-18 08:35:30, a dit:
Incredible Rainer, that you keep finding such great trees and manage to get nice sunny spring photos of them.

Keep up the good work,


Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-18 15:58:11, a dit:
Hallo Tim,

danke für das Lob. Ich will mich auch weiterhin bemühen ;-)

Viele Grüße,


Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-03-21 21:14:10, a dit:
Wie wil mij vertellen wat ze vinden van de monumentaliteit van deze boom ?Ik ben zeer nieuwsgierig? Geen sparende antwoorden svp. Zeg gewoon wat je vindt. Al vind je het helemaal niks, maakt mij niet uit.
Conifers, à 2014-03-21 23:09:07, a dit:
Hi Wim - it looks to be a good specimen for its species (if I am right with it being Malus sylvestris!), above average but not exceptional in size or location; if rating it, I guess I would give it around 3.75 or 4 on MT's rating system.
Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-03-22 07:08:28, a dit:
Hai Wim and Conifers,

Malus sylvestris checks out with it's overal treeform, bark, flower and leaf. It is a beautiful old tree and belongs in MT as I see it.

Greetings, Martin

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-03-22 10:11:07, a dit:
Thank you fot your opinion There is also somebody who speaks in numbers. Probably a bit shy person
Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-03-22 12:44:04, a dit:

Ik geef foto's een waardering als fotokwaliteit en de mate waarin de boom mijn bewondering, verwondering of andere emotie oproept. Dat is meer bepalend dan de maten (geen Miss World verkiezing).

Veel plezier trouwens volgende week met de fotocursus van Hans Clausing in de Leidse Hortus.


Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-03-22 12:50:59, a dit:
Hi Martin,

Dat is ook mijn lijn. Daarnaast Geef ik niet stelselmatig allerlei foto's die ik lager waardeer dan 3 een cijfer. Dat is zo flauw en irritant. Maar ja, kennelijk heeft de betreffende figuur daar veel behoefte aan want hij doet het vaak. Hier ook weer. Ik snap niet waarom je één van deze foto's een 2,5 moet geven. Het is niet zo dat ik me daardoor gekwetst voel. Eigenlijk interesseert het me niet zo veel. Ik vind het plaatje wel mooi, zo van die frisse voorjaarsbloesem, maar dat hoeft niemand met me eens te zijn. Ik vind het alleen raadselachtig en ik begrijp graag alles. (Ik was nou eenmaal een controlfreak in mijn werkzame leven)


TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-03-30 17:21:09, a dit:
From your photo, Wim, I'm fairly confident this is Malus hupehensis, a species from China and Japan introduced (to Britain) around 1901. It is one of the largest-growing Malus, as well as one of the most beautiful.
Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-03-30 18:05:50, a dit:
Hello Owen,Wim and others

M. hupehensis could be right, or M. baccata. Both species have pure white flowers. They differ in fruits, but from the image of the flowering tree it is difficult to say. M. baccata is more common than M. hupehensis in the Netherlands. Flowers of M. sylvestris are not white, so it is certainly not M. sylvestris. I agree in changing the species in M. hupehensis.

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-03-30 19:02:23, édité à 2014-03-30 19:23:51, a dit:
Thank you all for the intrest. With your comment in mind I will try to give additional information.I'm not at all surprised if this is a special tree. I talked to some people in the neighbourhoud, they keep being attracted to it's beauty. Besides The Clingendael estate is a very special place. During centuries is was habitated by people that made a difference in history. Up till now it is habitated by a scientific elaborate institute that studies international relations.

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-05 19:03:43, a dit:
Hi all,

Today I visited this tree again and was very much surprised that it didn't show any flowers. Apparently it blooms only one time in two years?. Does this add information for you? Ik will upload some new pictures of the leaves and bark. Furthermore I saw a smaller similar tree next to it and another apparently the same some hundred metres furtheron.

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-06 16:32:58, a dit:
In England they bloom each year, but they are not the earliest to bloom (still in bud now). I find it difficult to tell M.hupehensis with confidence from M. baccata (or M. mandshurica which is the commonly grown form), but this tree's wide-spreading irregular habit and bark cracking into big scales with orange and pink tints are characteristic of M. hupehensis.
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-18 15:36:56, a dit:
Hi all,

Today I again visited the Malus Hupehensis (t 16999) and to my pleasure I saw it is full of buds. Next week I will visit it again accompanied by Martin Tijdgat. For now I upload a picture of the bus.

Furthermore, apparently there was someone in the Hague who really liked these trees, I found another example in the West of the Hague on the Hyacinthweg. I will post it later on.

Libanoneik in Merwesteinpark
Visible pour tous · permalink · nl
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-18 15:32:07, a dit:
Hallo Leo,

Zoals je hebt kunnen zien, heb ik de informatie over de bomen in het Merwesteinpark Dordrecht een beetje gesystematiseerd en toegankelijker gemaakt. Nou kom ik 2 metingen van jou tegen die ik niet kan plaatsen. 1. Je hebt een Libanoneik opgevoerd die er volgens de gegevens van de Stichting Merwestein park en mijn waarnemingen niet is. En 2 je hebt een meting voor een plataan toegevoegd. Kun je nog achterhalen voor welke dat is?


Wim Brinkerink

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-18 12:01:02, a dit:
Wim; wauw wat een foto van deze prachtige klimboom. Martin
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-18 14:50:50, a dit:
Dank je, Martin.

Even ter info, Maarten Windemuller wees me op het negatieve effekt van de bestrating rondom. Ik heb deze zorg aan de beheerder doorgegeven. Kan geen kwaad. De beheerder geeft ook aan dat de boom zeer geliefd is als klimboom, maar dat hij volgens hem nog heel gezonds is.


Bess, à 2013-12-03 21:27:17, a dit:
Heerlijke haagbeuk!
Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-18 06:44:56, a dit:
Hai Bess,

Als ik deze foto zie dan is dit, net als de boom waar ook discussie over is in het park Merwestein in Dordrecht, een eikbladige haagbeuk Carpinus betulus 'Quercifolia'.

Heb je wellicht foto's van verschillende bomen bij deze boom gezet, want ik zie ook een foto van een kaarsrechte populierenstam?

Groet, Martin

Bess, à 2014-04-18 10:26:46, a dit:
De haagbeuk is de scheve stam op de achtergrond. Populier is de boom die hier in deze foto niet in beeld is. En op de voorgrond van deze foto zie je blaadjes van meidoorn.

De populier links van het kapelletje en rond de kapel een gemengde haag, waarvan de haagbeuken zijn uitgegroeid. Aan de grilligheid van de haagbeuk te zien, gewone Carpinus betulus.

:-) het wordt inderdaad verwarrend zo. Maar de plek is bijzonder door zijn geheel. De populier 'vodjesboom' wordt zelf niet echt gebruikt voor 'vodjes' wel de haag rond de kapel. En omdat ik zelf een Carpinus liefhebber ben trokken die natuurlijk ook mijn aandacht!

Bess, à 2014-04-18 10:27:08, a dit:
De haagbeuk is de scheve stam op de achtergrond. Populier is de boom die hier in deze foto niet in beeld is. En op de voorgrond van deze foto zie je blaadjes van meidoorn.

De populier links van het kapelletje en rond de kapel een gemengde haag, waarvan de haagbeuken zijn uitgegroeid. Aan de grilligheid van de haagbeuk te zien, gewone Carpinus betulus.

:-) het wordt inderdaad verwarrend zo. Maar de plek is bijzonder door zijn geheel. De populier 'vodjesboom' wordt zelf niet echt gebruikt voor 'vodjes' wel de haag rond de kapel. En omdat ik zelf een Carpinus liefhebber ben trokken die natuurlijk ook mijn aandacht!

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-18 11:56:29, a dit:
Hai Bess,

De machtige gespierde grillige haagbeuk hoort ook tot mijn favorieten!

Na deze uitleg snap ik het pas echt. Kan je je verhaal voor deze bijzondere combinatie van vodjesboom (populier), kapelletje, ring meidoorns en haagbeuken waar de 'vodjes' in worden gehangen daar op aanpassen? Heb je misschien een foto van de hele combinatie met de complete zwarte populier?

Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-17 09:41:23, a dit:
Ich will ja nicht ätzen, aber der letzte bebilderte Absatz hierhttp://www.monumentaltrees.com/de/content/baumumfangmessen/

wäre sicher hilfreich.

lg Scholem

Karlheinz, à 2014-04-18 05:57:26, a dit:
Hallo Scholem,

bei einem vielstämmigen Baum, wo die Verzweigungen schon unterhalb von 1,30 m liegen, mache ich grundsätzlich eine Taillenmessung. Die beschreibt den Stamm besser als eine sture 1,30-m-Messung. Da MT kein Datenfeld zur Kennzeichnung als Taillenmessung hat, muß die Angabe der von 1,30 m abweichenden Messhöhe (hier 10 cm) genügen.

Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-18 08:47:36, a dit:
Hallo Karlheinz

Das ist ziemlich einfach, wenn man zuerst eine Messung an der geringsten gemeinsamnen Stelle macht und die Höhe angibt und dann eine auf 1,30m Höhe beim dicksten Stamm.

So wie viele andere auch ist zB. diese Flügelnuss ptérocaryer du Caucase (Pterocarya fraxinifolia) '12254'

das beste Beispiel dafür.

lg Scholem

Karlheinz, à 2014-04-18 11:51:58, a dit:
Hallo Scholem,

bei deiner Flügelnuss sieht es so aus, als kommen sechs Einzelbäume aus dem Erdreich heraus (eine Verbindung darf im Erdreich vermutet werden), da bietet sich keine Taillenmessung an. In meinem Fall sind es zwei einzeln stehende Bäume und den größeren der beiden habe ich gemessen, aber da bot sich eben die Taillenmessung auf 10 cm Höhe an, weil die Verzweigungen direkt über der Erdoberfläche beginnen. Die "Taillenmessung" ist die Messung an der engsten Stelle unterhalb der Verzweigungen und ich halte sie für aussagekräftiger als die Messung eines einzelnen Stämmlings. Ob das hier bei diesem Gebilde in exakt 1,30 m überhaupt sinnvoll möglich ist, will ich gern prüfen, wenn ich noch mal hin komme.

viele Grüße


Facebookgruppe Monumentale Bäume
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Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-18 10:54:53, édité à 2014-04-18 10:58:22, a dit:
Liebe Leute

Ich habe eine Facebookgruppe namens Monumentale Bäume eröffnet, wo sich Baumliebhaber treffen und austauschen können. Ich habe in der letzten Zeit auf FB immer wieder "geteiltes" erhalten, das ich gerne diskutieren und herzeigen möchte, aber durch die Copyright-Bestimmungen nicht im MT-Forum konnte.

Ich werde die MT-Homepage angeben als weiterführende Information, wenn es recht ist. http://www.facebook.com/groups/505235279588205/

liebe Grüße


Maarten Windemuller, à 2014-04-18 08:47:36, a dit:
Pavement around the tree: beginning of end. Pity

Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-15 15:39:18, a dit:
hallo Wim, dit is Fagus sylvatica 'Aspleniifolia', mooie boom, Leo

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-16 15:29:16, a dit:
Hi Leo,.

Dank voor de correctie. Jammer dat zelfs info van een park waarvan de grondlegger J.R. Hoey Smith is, zijn bomen niet correct benoemd. Ik had de naam uit hun eigen informatiebronnen. Ik zal het veranderen.



Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-17 08:18:47, édité à 2014-04-17 08:32:38, a dit:
Hallo Leo,

De beheerder namens gemeente en stichting blijft erbij dat het een Carpinus betulus Quercifolia is. Nico Duyndam (de beheerder) geeft aan " Wim ik moet je toch teleurstellen boom nr 48 is echt een Carpinus betulus Quercifolia een Fagus sylvatica Asplenifolia draagt sowieso geen 2 verschillende bladvormen. Dit even ter kennisgeving. Groeten


Nou ben ik niet teleurgesteld dat het toch een Carpinus Betulus Quercifolia is, maar wel in onzekerheid wat ik zal doen.



Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-17 09:14:45, a dit:

Ik heb nogmaals contact gehad met Nico Duyndam. Zodra de boom in blad staat stuurt hij een foto. Naar zijn mening is dat het meest overtuigend.



Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-17 17:38:50, a dit:
Wim en Leo,

De F.s. 'Aspleniifolia' heeft wel degelijk 2 verschillende bladvormen. Kijk maar naar mijn foto's van de varenbeuk in Woodstock Gardens. Ik heb er met Gert Fortgens van Arboretum Trompenburg ook over gehad, maar er is een hele zwerm van in de natuur gevonden beuken met afwijkende bladvormen; met ingesneden tot lijnvormige bladeren. Deze gevonden vormen kregen bij naamgeving allerlei verschillende namen.

Maar ga er graag eens kijken want Carpinus betulus 'Quercifolia' als volwassen boom heb ik nog niet gezien.

Groet, Marrtin

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-17 19:23:25, a dit:
IK heb zojuist 17-4-2014 21.22 uur een foto van het blad bij de boom geplaatst.http://www.monumentaltrees.com/db/30/600/30725.jpg

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-17 20:15:00, édité à 2014-04-17 20:16:20, a dit:
Han van Meegeren heeft een zelfde soort boom opgevoerd in Breda. [ t 9593]

Hij geeft aan dat de boom grotendeels beukenbladeren heeft en aan de uiteinden eikenbladeren.

charme commun (Carpinus betulus) '9593'

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-17 22:36:00, a dit:
Wim, Han, Leo,

De boom ziet er voor mij wel degelijk uit als Carpinus betulus 'Quercifolia', gezien de detailfoto. De varenbeuk heeft meestal insnijdingen die scherper zijn en naar de top van het blad steeds dieper insnijden tot bladeren die vrijwel geheel lijnvormig zijn. Die laatste bladvorm heb ik nooit bij jonge C.b. 'Quercifolia' gezien.

Groet, Martin

Jeroen Philippona, à 2014-04-03 20:06:36, a dit:
Hi Owen,

Nice you confirmed it to be 41 m! I visited Knole with Tim Bekaert in April 2007 and was a bit frustrated I did not know where this tree stood so that I did not find it.

Did you remeasure the girth also?

Regards, Jeroen

Tim B, à 2014-04-04 06:58:54, a dit:
Yes indeed, I remember very well. I looked on the map where the tree stands, and reconstructed our walk in 2007: luckily for us now, Jeroen, we did not walk very close to the tree and missed it.

Kind regards,


TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-06 16:37:10, a dit:
I've now heard that the tree was climbed by Waldo Etherington last year at 38.7m, which is much closer to my hypsometer estimates, so this time the laser height is probably not accurate. I could only record 41m from one direction - the rest of the time I was getting around 39m but felt I was only hitting near shoots on the side of the crown. It is a difficult tree to record because of the broad, even dome, and I doubt if Waldo's team got to the very highest shoots.

RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:56:41, a dit:
This is a superb tree, is there any visible wind shear on it Owen, was the higher reading looking at the tree from the north east side? With a big crown like this, it must be a real decision for a climber to decide which is the tallest shoot sticking up, how would they have decided which one to choose?

RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:56:57, a dit:
This is a superb tree, is there any visible wind shear on it Owen, was the higher reading looking at the tree from the north east side? With a big crown like this, it must be a real decision for a climber to decide which is the tallest shoot sticking up, how would they have decided which one to choose?

Winter storm damage.
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RedRob, à 2014-04-15 17:17:30, a dit:
How has everyone faired with damage from the winter storms? Quite alot of my own to report, alot of damage, fallen and shattered trees up here.

Jeroen Philippona, à 2014-04-15 21:21:32, a dit:
In the NW of the Netherlands there was a lot of storm damage in November and December, in Amsterdam a lot of trees in the old city fell over. In the region where I live in the east there was little storm damage this winter. The winter here was a lot dryer and with less wind compared to most of the UK. January to March were very warm and dry.


Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-16 00:57:40, a dit:
RedRob and Jeroen,

From the 10.000 trees I take care off in my area (Wijdemeren next to Hilversum) there were 45 storm victims after october 28 2013. 10 birch in one street, 7 young Liquidambar, 5 young Pterocarya stenoptera, and only a few 60 year old trees as oak, Groeneveld-iep, aspen, London plane, willow and lime.

We have already replanted 19 trees like 4 Ostrya carpinifolia, Ulmus 'Frontier', 3-stemmed Parrotia persica, Ginkgo biloba 'Saratoga', Acer platanoides 'Eurostar' Acer rubrum 'Karpick', Ulmus 'Dodoens'. I have to find room for 11 other trees to keep in line with our 60% replant in the local tree policy paper.


RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:51:19, a dit:
When you watch the BBC weather forecasts, a great deal of the time with the depressions you can see the tight isobars over us even down to the channel and then open isobars sometimes none over France, Germany, even the low countries as you say, amazing what a few miles difference makes southern England over to the continent.

RedRob, à 2014-04-15 17:12:27, a dit:
Hello all, this bear has just woken up from hibernation.

The recent and ongoing photo voting saga, these photos will trounce any ever posted on here (winks)

Seriously, the biggest tragedy since I have been tree hunting and measuring. Forestry is not sentimental I know but walking around this site up the devastated land up the hill, this must have been the or one of the largest and most mature stands of Abies Procera anywhere judging by all the stumps. I could see big shadows on Google Maps, these stragglers that are left were probably not the tallest, I suspect a 40 meterer here. The tallest left is the slightly leaning tree immediately above the lady on the horse, 33.8 metres consistantly but had to aim just below the tip to get a hit with the laser. Anyone have any opinions as to why seemingly isolated trees like this are left standing? Are they likely to be left standing? If not then the trees here are likely to have gone already. If only I had visited a month earlier.

Sisley, à 2014-04-15 18:45:41, a dit:
Storms are always a problem for trees and plantations in especially for a monospecific plot of the same age, exposed to wind corridor.

It's a shock at the time, but we are forced to go ahead and then nature abhors a vacuum, so in years other species grow on the ground.

This is my main fear for some old specimens open field I spotted but what can you do front from the elements.

Conifers, à 2014-04-15 19:34:45, a dit:
The other option is that they left some standing to act as seed trees to regenerate the site naturally - Noble Fir is quite good at producing natural regeneration in Britain.

RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:43:53, a dit:
Hello Conifers, funny that you should say that, I was struck by how many self seeded Nobles there were on bits of the slope where the caterpillar machine hadn't been, all really small ones no bigger than about 6 inches, none of any higher height? Whether taller ones had been destroyed but I couldn't find any evidence if they had? When I visited Cragside, there were seedling Douglas Firs and Hemlocks around many tree bases but no Noble Fir seedlings around the big Nobles, the seedlings here are Greenhow are the first that I have ever seen. Perhaps if they are leaving the remaining trees for self seeding, this Yorkshire County champion Noble will survive unless exposure leads to it being dropped.

RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:45:48, a dit:
What are the old specimans you fear for Sisley? Does that big near 58 metre Sequoiadendron have reasonable shelter, do you think that there may be more Seqys of this height waiting for you to find?

Stephen Verge
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RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:39:05, a dit:
Hello Stephen, been quite a while, are you still with us? Did you purchase your laser?

Aubrey Fennell
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RedRob, à 2014-04-17 15:38:02, a dit:
Hello Aubrey, just read your post on the 'Spring' thread that sounds wild to say the least, if I remember correctly I think we had 87mph at Bingley as the maximum here. Driving around I have seen shattered trees all over the place, it will be a case of re-checking trees to see if there has been any damage. I hope for instance that the big Sweet Chestnuts at Fountains haven't fallen. Which of your monumental trees have gone, any of real significance for height? The 40 metre Ash hasn't gone for instance has it? How are you getting on with the Nikon Forestry Pro laser?

Frank Gyssling, à 2014-04-16 18:16:02, a dit:
Mein "Abwerter" ist wieder pünktlich zur Stelle ;-). Wie immer, leider ohne Kommentar.
Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-16 18:25:52, a dit:
Hallo Frank,

es ist nicht "dein" Abwerter ;-) Meine Bilder erhalten auch zu genüge so niedrige Bewertungen.

Viele Grüße,


Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-16 17:39:59, a dit:
Hallo Leo.

Er is geen Libanoneik in het Merwesteinpark. Is dit misschien de moseik?


Groet Wim

Zeltins, à 2014-04-14 16:10:28, a dit:
Still alive after the 2005th January storms.
RedRob, à 2014-04-15 17:25:08, a dit:
Quite a few trees like this up here in Yorkshire after this winter.

Foto's door 013hanvanmeegeren
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OKAnnette, à 2014-04-15 11:20:34, a dit:
Hoi Han, weet jij wanneer de Pawlowna Tormentosa in Maastricht bloeit? Vanuit Friesland wel een te grote gok om op de bonnefooi te gaan. Annette

Overlegpagina van Nardo
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OKAnnette, à 2014-04-15 11:17:50, a dit:
Dag Nardo, weet jij wanneer de Pawlonia Tormentosa in Eindhoven bloeit? Ik zou het graag willen zien, maar een reisje vanuit Friesland is een te grote 'gok' om op de bonnen. Fooi te gaan. Alvast bedankt Annette

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-14 21:10:06, a dit:
Hallo Karlheinz,

reinrassige Schwarz-Pappeln werden nie von Misteln befallen, demnach ist deine Einschätzung absolut richtig.

Viele Grüße,


Treefriend007, à 2014-04-13 20:22:07, a dit:
This cedar (Atlas/Libanon) seems to be in good shape.

Please communicate details on arboristic diagnosis.

luisindepels, à 2014-04-14 16:14:20, a dit:
it was demage at the other site.I don't have arboristic diagnosis. but if I can find it or can't take hand of it I will post it...

papagan1950, à 2014-04-14 09:59:40, a dit:
Komen aan deze beuk ook beukennootjes ik heb nu 8 tamme kastanje 5 walnoten en 2 beukennootbome
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-14 13:49:30, a dit:
Ik weet het niet. Lijkt me wel.
papagan1950, à 2014-04-14 13:55:00, a dit:
ik nu wel 8 tamme kastanje 5 walnoten en 2 beukennootjes bomen allemaal zaailingen hoe verder behandel

KoutaR, à 2014-04-10 17:41:26, a dit:
There are plenty of fallen trees in the satellite image northwest of this tree. What are those fallen trees?

Incredible downy birch!

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-13 18:37:48, a dit:
I seem to remember a plantation of forestry poplars in this area. Parham Park is an ancient deer-park (not open to the public) and a Site of Special Scientific Interest, and the poplars could have been felled to restore the area where they had been planted, as well as to sell the timber.


luisindepels, à 2014-04-11 18:22:28, a dit:
photo form the plant in the year 1957

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-11 17:37:54, a dit:

Dank voor de foto's. Ga de boom morgen beter determineren, want het is geen Magnolia maar eerder een Sierkers, wellicht Prunus avium 'Plena'.

Groet, Martin

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-11 16:06:24, a dit:
Hi Martin,

Ik was vandaag in Rotterdam en onderweg naar huis zag ik een prachtige boom tegenover de oude ingang van de diergaarde. Ik stond perpleks over de boom. Na enig zoekwerk met daarbij de afweging is het een prunus of een malus kwam ik de conclusie Prunus cerasifera.??? Nou ben ik geen expert, maar goed ik leer. Toen ik hem wilde opvoeren kwam ik deze boom van jou tegen. Hij stond er al met een andere naam. Nou laten we maar kijken. Ik voer de maten op en voeg foto's toe. Prachtboom!

Rayn, à 2014-04-10 22:15:31, a dit:
That is one impressive rowan.

Rayn, à 2014-04-10 10:53:22, a dit:
My guess is that some kind of poplar, but I can't say for sure.

Maarten Windemuller, à 2014-04-10 20:31:12, a dit:
Hei Rayn,

Could it be Grey Alder (Alnus incana)? Maybe you can make some pictures from details like twigs with buds.

Best regards,


Rayn, à 2014-04-10 22:07:46, a dit:
I'll return later in spring and try to get some closeups, one problem is that the first twigs is at least 10 meters or so up but maybe I can find some cracked twig or fallen leaf by then, thank you for your answer.

Rayn, à 2014-04-10 10:55:48, a dit:
My guess is an European larch, or could it be some other kind?

Maarten Windemuller, à 2014-04-10 21:16:26, édité à 2014-04-10 21:24:25, a dit:
Larix sibirica is common on the same geographic level in Finland and adjacent part of Russia. On the other side on http://www.tradportalen.se/Observations.aspx# there are some L. d. registered (in 2006) form which one on about the same place as 'your' L.d is pointed on the map. So keep it for L.d.

Rayn, à 2014-04-10 21:57:44, a dit:
Thank you, there was two larches of similar girth size on the property and that other registration you found would be one of them. Thank you for your help.

Rayn, à 2014-04-10 22:02:19, a dit:
I must have measured the smallest one, or too high up because the older one is 3.20 if I'm reading that site correctly, compared to my measurement 3.10 and I guess it have not shrunk in the recent years.

Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-09 09:29:34, a dit:
Na servas!!

Wie groß und alt werden die eigentlich in ihrer angestammten Heimat?

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-10 17:37:12, a dit:
Hallo Scholem,

also viel dicker werden die in Amerika auch nicht. Der Rekordhalter hat einen Umfang von etwas über 8 m. Zum Alter kann ich da leider nichts sagen.

Viele Grüße,


Scholem Alejchem, à 2013-11-02 17:02:35, a dit:
Uhu da schaut eine alte Hex heraus....
Tim B, à 2013-11-03 13:24:36, a dit:
Actually it's me on that picture. It's my girl friend that took the picture. This is in fact not a single tree, but two individual trees fused at the base. The fire scar is located at the fuse.

Kind regards,


Pacortiz, à 2014-01-24 01:41:03, a dit:
Excelentes seres vivos. Quiero visitarlos. A donde tengo que ir?
Tim B, à 2014-01-24 20:56:53, a dit:
Hola Pacortiz,

si hace clic en la imagen se puede ver la ubicación donde el árbol crece.

Saludos cordiales,


celtedu13, à 2014-04-09 10:22:39, a dit:
Impressionnant ;)

celtedu13, à 2014-04-09 10:19:03, a dit:
Faut être sous cet arbre pour se rendre compte de l'envergure qu'il a

celtedu13, à 2014-04-09 10:15:24, a dit:
je connais bien ce Platane j'habite pas très loin je le trouve extraordinaire ;)

williBremen, à 2013-02-22 09:22:09, a dit:
Scholem Alejchem, à 2013-02-22 09:36:58, a dit:
...ist Sie, und erst die Bäume!
celtedu13, à 2014-04-09 10:09:22, a dit:
magnifique :)

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-07 23:19:42, a dit:
Can it be that we have some clumps off a few planes planted together in one place? Martin

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-08 05:31:26, a dit:
Hallo Martin,

ich verstehe dich leider nicht so richtig. Es dürfte sich jeweils um ein Baum handeln, der jedoch Mehrkernig ist. Die Trennung der einzelnen Äste geschieht in über 2 m Höhe.

Viele Grüße,


KoutaR, à 2014-04-08 11:19:13, a dit:
Hallo Rainer,

Er meint, dass es sich um einem "Büschelbaum" handeln könnte: mehrere Jungpflanzen in einem Bündel gepflanz, um schnell "einen" grossen Baum zu schaffen.

Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-08 12:46:07, a dit:
Yes, these are Buschelbaume, planted and tied together or planted at short distance.

Many of them are at MT, see for instance:

hêtre (Fagus sylvatica) '3913'

This is a rare example of an interwined tree.

In many old parks from 18 and 19th century you can find them, f.i. Muskauer Park (a very nice place to visit):


cheers, Leo

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-08 15:59:39, a dit:

ihr meint also, es würde sich nicht um einen Baum handeln? Ich habe über diese Platanen inzwischen auch schon mit dem Deutschen Baumarchiv und mit Michel Brunner von proarbore gesprochen. Die meinen auch wie ich, dass es sich um Mehrkernigkeit, aber definitiv um ein Individuum handeln würde. Wenn die Aufteilung der Äste nicht so hoch wäre, würde ich auch eher zu Mehrstämmigkeit tendieren, aber so eigentlich nicht.

Viele Grüße,


Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-08 18:46:13, a dit:
The stems of the trees have been tied together after planting, so that it looks like one individual tree. And the landscape architects in the late 18th and 19th century succeeded, as most of the people, even many tree specialists, do not recognise it. See also this Platanus, the largest one in the Netherlands is a bundle of trees: kasteel Laag Keppel

cheers, Leo

Rayn, à 2014-04-08 19:01:24, a dit:
That is interesting. Is there more species that succesfully merge together like that?

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-08 20:02:11, a dit:
Hallo Leo,

interessante Diskussion. In Deutschland wurden im 17. und 18. Jahrhundert oftmals drei Buchen im Büschel zusammengepflanzt. Tiere haben dann meistens die äußeren Triebe abgefressen, so dass der mittlere Leittrieb eine höhere Überlebenschance hatte. Aber manchmal haben auch alle drei Triebe überlebt. Beispiele dazu sieht man im Urwald Sababurg oder beim Kloster Frauenroth:

hêtre (Fagus sylvatica) '9626'

hêtre (Fagus sylvatica) '9556'

Bei beiden Fällen handelt es sich um Büschelpflanzungen, die heute eine Drillingsform haben. Man sieht da auch heute noch deutlich die einzelnen Stämme.

Bei den Platanen hier sieht es aber meine ich anders aus. Die Stämmlinge sind da bis in über 2 m Höhe miteinander verwachsen. Ich denke da eher an Kernwüchse. Zumindest müsste man in Monumentaltrees die Art wie bei den Platanen hier und in deinem Fall anders Klassifizieren, als bei den beiden Buchen in meinen Beispielen. Nur ist das leider in Monumentaltrees nicht möglich. Ich habe das vor einiger schonmal hier angesprochen, aber ohne Erfolg.

Viele Grüße,


Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-08 21:13:54, a dit:
These forms with 2,3,5 or even 7 trees put together as one tree is seen with different trees, like Fagus, Betula, Carpinus, Quercus, Tilia and Platanus. I even have a question with a Castanea sativa in Loosdrecht that has 7 limbs. Some garden historians tell this is a clump off 7 trees.

Nowadays this type of cultivating trees becomes more popular again. This year I planted 1 clump with 3 stems of Parrotia persica in Kortenhoef. Tree nurseries offer a wide range off different clumped trees.

Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-09 04:55:11, a dit:
Hello Martin,

tree nurseries offer multistemmed trees, but that is almost ever one (coppiced) tree with more stems, not different trees. The best way is to buy 3, 5, or 7 trees, plant them together and tie them up. All tree species can be used. There are even examples of different species, e.g. a Fagus and a Populus xcanescens together.

I have planted this year a bundle of smal Juglans trees and Platanus trees in Oostereng Arboretum.

To my opinion the Castanea you mentioned is a coppiced tree, een gekopte boom, ook daarvan zijn nog een paar voorbeelden in NL.


Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-07 18:43:54, a dit:
Schöne Riesen

Ich habe am letzten WE ebenfalls einen extrem verwilderten Schlosspark entdeckt, in dem ebensolche Platanen auszumachen sind.

lg Scholem

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-07 19:43:15, a dit:
Hallo Scholem,

ja, schöne Riesen trifft es genau. Immerhin handelt es sich jetzt um die dickste Platane in Deutschland. Hast du die Platanen schon registriert, die du da gefunden hast?

Viele Grüße,


Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-07 20:19:17, a dit:
Nein der Park ist eingezäunt und extrem dicht bewachsen. Ich muss erst die "richtige" Person finden, die Einlass gewährt.

lg Scholem

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-08 15:55:09, a dit:
Das kenne ich leider auch zu genüge, dass Bäume auf Privatgrund stehen. Vielleicht bekommst du ja irgendwann Zugang. In meiner Region steht eine Platane auf Privatgrund mit geschätzten 7,5 m Umfang. Man sieht es von außen nicht so gut. Der Schlossbesitzer lässt mich aber nicht zum Baum, leider.

Viele Grüße,


Scholem Alejchem, à 2014-04-08 19:09:04, a dit:
Manchmal kann man Schloss- und Parkbesitzer damit zum Nachdenken bringen, daß eine Erwähnung bei MT die wirtschaftliche Nutzung erleichtert, besonders da man EU-Förderungen lukrieren könnte. Dazu muß man aber erst zum richtigen Ansprechpartner gelangen, denn das sind Verwalter zumeist nicht und die meisten Schlösser in Ö sind ja nicht bewohnt.

lg Scholem

Rainer Lippert, à 2014-04-08 20:07:22, a dit:
In meinem Fall habe ich an der Schlosstür persönlich mit dem Schlossherren gesprochen. Er möchte es aber nicht, dass der Baum bekannt wird. Ein anderer Fall ist wiederum die dickste Schwarznuss Europas:

noyer noir (Juglans nigra) '17056'

Dort war ich vor ein paar Wochen. Der Baum steht auch auf Privatgrund. Ich konnte aber mit dem Schlossbesitzer im Vorfeld per Mail einen Termin ausmachen. Und vor Ort hat der Freiherr von Gayling mir dann ganz Stolz sein Schloss, sein Park und vor allem die Schwarznuss gezeigt. Es geht also auch manchmal anders ;-)

Viele Grüße,


Beuk op de Burcht in Leiden
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Jeroen Philippona, à 2014-04-06 20:16:29, édité à 2014-04-08 19:44:49, a dit:
Hoi Wim,

Kun je de leeftijd van deze beuk onderbouwen? Volgens jouw melding de oudste beuk in Nederland die op MT is vermeld en ouder dan de oudste beuk die we in het boek Bijzondere bomen in Nederland hebben gemeld, die uit Haastrecht van 1694.

Dat het park in 1651 is aangelegd zegt weinig over het plantjaar van de beuk, wellicht heb je meer specifieke informatie.

Zo ook is de leeftijd van ± 314 jaar van de beuk van Oegstgeest bepaald niet zeker. Van de beuk in Haastrecht zijn er in ieder geval documenten betreffende de aanplant ter gelegenheid van de geboorte van een kind van de toenmalige eigenaar, zie het artikel in Bijzondere Bomen.

Frank Moens meldt in dat boek voor de beuk in Oegstgeest 1860 - 1870 als plantperiode, ook dat onderbouwt hij niet, maar het vermoeden van de eigenaar van 300 jaar moet op meer gebaseerd zijn om het als feit te accepteren.

Groeten, Jeroen

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-07 07:34:18, a dit:
Hallo Jeroen,

Ik zal uitzoeken op grond waarvan ik die leeftijd heb toegevoegd. .

Tussendoor een vraag. Normaal krijg vragen ook via mijn mail door. Deze vraag kwam ik toevallig tegen omdat ik op de hoofdpagina langs de nieuwe posts scrolde en jouw vraag tegenkwam. Snap jij het, weet je er iets meer van?.

NB. De eerste keer ( 5 minuten geleden) dat ik deze vraag probeerde te beantwoorden kreeg ik de melding dat er geen verbinding met monumentaltrees.com gemaakt kon worden. Nou gebeurt dit laatste wel vaker, maar in dit geval waard om bij stil te staan, terwijl ook mijn tekst verdwenen was.



Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-07 09:19:47, a dit:
Hallo Jeroen,

Ik heb me gebaseerd op het feit dat de Burcht in 1150 is aangelegd en dat het stadsbestuur hem heeft aangekocht en er in 1651 een stadspark van heeft gemaakt. Gezien de plek van de boom en het feit dat deze zo hoog boven het maaiveld stond, vond ik het niet onlogisch dat de boom er al vanaf het begin heeft gestaan. De vertakking van de wortels lijkt daar ook op te duiden. Jij vindt dat dus niet aannemelijk?



Conifers, à 2014-04-07 11:30:56, édité à 2014-04-07 12:04:23, a dit:
I agree with Jeroen, this tree is not so old. First, Fagus sylvatica is not a long-lived tree; specimens over 250 years old are very exceptional (and usually only found at high altitude where growth is slower), and even trees >200 years are rare. Second, the cultivar 'Atropunicea' was only described in 1770; there are no records of any purple-leaf Fagus sylvatica cultivars until 1680 (when one was reported at Buchs, Zurich, Switzerland).

It should be possible to find historical evidence for planting dates, or old illustrations with useful information. In a quick look, I found this 1742 drawing showing newly planted trees where this tree is now, but whether it is one of these is not certain (if it is, it would be the middle right tree in the set of nine). However, I suspect even ~1740 is too old for this tree; my guess for its planting date would be around 1800. Can anyone estimate a date for this undated drawing, where the tree is not present?

Edit: I asked someone with experience of historical clothing fashions; he dated the undated drawing as later 18th century, 1750-1800, and definitely later than the 1742 drawing. So the young trees in the 1742 drawing had been removed and replaced with a parterre garden, and cannot include the beech in question.

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-07 15:43:27, a dit:
Hi Conifers,


I started to try and find an answer to your question about the age of the drawing. It's not that simple. I think I'll go to the archives this week. And thanks for your research.



KoutaR, à 2014-04-08 10:28:33, a dit:
Fagus sylvatica is not a long-lived tree; specimens over 250 years old are very exceptional (and usually only found at high altitude where growth is slower), and even trees >200 years are rare.

Hi Conifers,

I guess you slightly under-estimate the longevity of beech. At least in Central Europe, it regularly reaches 300 years in the few remaining old-growth forest remnants, also at low elevations. Or maybe you mean that specimens over 250 years are very exceptional because there is so little old forest left?


Conifers, à 2014-04-08 18:15:41, a dit:
Hi Kouta,

Thanks for the extra details! Although I had not known about these older trees in natural forest conditions, it does not surprise me, as they will spend a long period growing slowly in the understorey before reaching maturity (same applies to e.g. Abies, which I did know about). That won't apply in the present case of a planted tree, of course.

Rayn, à 2014-04-08 18:57:58, a dit:
I know of one beech in that grew naturally to over 400 years:http://www.dendrochronology.se/res/pdf_s/niklassonfritz2003.pdf

Girth was only 232 cm.

"In 2001 an extraordinary old (Fagus Sylvatica) was found in a beech forest at the Mårås nature reserve. The tree died in 2002. A sample from about 50 cm off the ground contained 397 annual rings. Normally the beech in that area needs between three and ten years to reach that height. The tree was therefore at least 400 years and is the oldest dated individual so far in Northern Europe. Slow growth during most of it's life is like to have contributed to it's high age by keeping it's dimensions down. The tree showed no signs of having been pollarded"

There is one heavily trimmed beech in Epping Forest in England mentioned in that pdf that is said to be between 500 to 1000 years, is that tree on this site?

Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-06 10:43:20, a dit:
This tree is not 9014 years old, but dead wood remains from roots and cones in the soil appeared to be 9550 years old according to radio carbon dating. The age of the tree itself is not known, there has been no tree ring data research as far as I know. The press release was not correct, only dead wood remains are 9550 years old.

Could you please put the right information at MT? For the list of oldest trees in the world, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees.

cheers, Leo

Rayn, à 2014-04-06 15:27:33, édité à 2014-04-06 15:31:15, a dit:
This is an interesting discussion. An old oak where the centre is rotten and only the younger outer parts of the tree remains, is it as old as the living wood or should the dead parts count?

I don't know the answer and is not in any position to say what belongs on this site or not, I'm merely posting a tree that some sources claim to be 9550 years old. Not that very trunk that is visible, as I wrote it appeared in krummholz formation for thousand of years and have taken a more treelike appearance lately.

The reason it says 9014 years is that when you come to this ages the site wont let you be more specific than 8000, 9000 or 10000 BC.

Rayn, à 2014-04-06 23:31:43, édité à 2014-04-06 23:37:16, a dit:
I reread my answer and thought to myself that I do not wish to start arguments as I am clearly the newbie here. Do not know whether this discussion disappears when I remove the registered tree but I'll do that anyway.

Conifers, à 2014-04-07 08:57:41, a dit:
While I agree that the evidence for its age is not good (in the absence of DNA matching, how can they prove the 9550 year radiocarbon-dated wood is from the same individual as the living tree?), it is still scientifically and dendrologically a far more interesting and significant tree than many others on this site. It is also a tree that (from the publicity about it) people might expect to find included here. So, please bring Old Tjikko back!

Maarten Windemuller, à 2014-04-08 07:21:26, a dit:
Agreer with Conifers: please bring Old Tjikko back on MT.

Rayn, à 2014-04-08 09:15:55, a dit:
Ok, I added it again. No picture this time as I got no photo myself and just read the disclaimer...

My wife and I have talked about getting back to Fulufjället again some day as we have a cabin in the family nearby and then I promise to take photos. Last time we where there we just took some photos of the waterfall as my interest in trees is a quite recent thing.

Conifers, à 2014-04-08 18:10:16, a dit:
Thanks! I can add a photo from Wiki Commons, as they are creative-commons licensed for use by people other than the photographer.

Conifers, à 2014-04-08 18:32:32, a dit:
Photo added - Tim, could you change the Photographer attribution from 'Conifers', to Karl Brodowsky, please (I can't work out how to do it!)

Rayn, à 2014-04-07 15:14:14, édité à 2014-04-07 16:25:11, a dit:
Could this be a betula pendula, silver birch instead?

Betula pendula is known for masurgrowth, when the stem deforms and give a decorative wood for furnitures etc. Don't know the english word, but here is a swedish wikipage about it with some pics:http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masur

Betula pubescens does not often have this deformation growth.

Also the branches on the close up picture looks very hanging and the leafs is quite triangular, just as Betula pendula.

Betula pubescens on the other have not as hanging branches and rounder leafs.

Could be something else than masur growth with this tree though, also maybe need more closeup to say something about leafs and cross pollination between the two is not rare either.

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-07 18:57:12, a dit:
From the bark I would be fairly confident this is Betula pubescens. The bark of pure B. pendula breaks into thick corky plates near the base. In Britain, most big birches are B. pubescens and are often as fluted as this one.

Rayn, à 2014-04-07 21:49:56, a dit:
Yes you and the original poster is surely correct, the bark is indeed quite smooth and clear white.

Interesting news to me though that bigger pubescen is more common in Britain, in central Sweden its the opposite actually.

And also pendula is more common on dry normal soils, where pubescens grows on wet soils close to mires and tarns and on the mountains in the north it forms forests as dwarfgrown at the border of the treeline above spruce and pine.

Rayn, à 2014-04-07 21:50:36, a dit:
Yes you and the original poster is surely correct, the bark is indeed quite smooth and clear white.

Interesting news to me though that bigger pubescen is more common in Britain, in central Sweden its the opposite actually.

And also pendula is more common on dry normal soils, where pubescens grows on wet soils close to mires and tarns and on the mountains in the north it forms forests as dwarfgrown at the border of the treeline above spruce and pine.

KoutaR, à 2014-04-08 11:06:20, a dit:
I have observed this birch nearly all my life. Rayn, you are not the first person who suggest it is B. pendula. However, the characteristics showing it's B. pubescens include:

  • Young twigs are pubescent, though only sparsely.

  • Twigs are without warts, which are typical for B. pendula.

  • Bark at the base don't break into plates (as Owen noted above).

  • The tree comes into leaf at the same time with B. pubescens trees nearby.

You are right that the leaves are quite triangular. This is true for B. pubescens in that region generally, where the two birches are sometimes rather difficult to tell apart, particularly in forest where the bases are often dark and rough in the both species.

Hybridization between B. pendula and B. pubescens is thought to be a rare event as they have differing chromosome numbers B. pendula being diploid and B. pubescens tetraploid, but I don't know if this has really been studied.

In Finland, B. pendula gets taller and thicker, but B. pubescens sometimes makes this like mutations. Note that if you exclude the "buttresses" the tree is much thinner.

The birch making "masur growth" (I don't know the English word either) is B. pendula var. carelica, a rare variety native to southern Finland, Russian Karelia and the Baltic countries. I don't know if there are other similar varieties.



Rayn, à 2014-04-08 15:17:53, a dit:
Yes if it's pubescent and without warts that definitely settles it.

I know that carelica has the highest rate of masurgrowth but pendula can occasionally have it too. Not at all as often, that's for sure.

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-07 23:02:27, a dit:
Wim, Nardo and others,

We have to see the fruits to make a real determination . In Wijdemeren I have 2 very old (estimated planted around 1850) cultivated prunes; Prunus (domestica) Myrobalaan-A. It has tasty golfball-size and -shaped fruits with a orange skin dotted with small red spots. To get the right name I found an old fruittreegrower via nursery G. Snel in Huizen. I still have to put pictures of these fruits with the trees in MT.

It looks a lot like another old semi-cultivated prune called "kroosje". I do not know how these fruit taste.

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-03-13 19:28:56, a dit:
Ter aanvulling. De eigenaar vertelde me dat ze er jaarlijks heerlijke zoeter pruimen van krijgt. Dus Prunus, maar welke?

Nardo Kaandorp, à 2014-03-13 20:50:07, a dit:
Ik denk aan een Kerspruim, maar dan een groenbladige. Prunus cerasifera. Toevallig heb ik deze boomsoort kortgeleden toegevoegd. Exact dezelfde omtrek als de roodbladige boom in Nuenen, hoe groot is die kans! Ze bloeien heel vroeg.

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-03-14 06:23:25, a dit:

Ben in Wijdemeren net bezig met een sierfruitcontrole en inderdaad staat de Prunus cerasus nu vol in bloei, naast de sleedoorn (Prunus spinosa) en een hybride als Prunus 'Accolade'. Prunus spinosa bloeit spierwit en heeft op vrijwel alle takken een paar takdoorns als einde van de kortloten en heeft ronde zure knikkers, de sleepruimpjes. Prunus 'Accolade' bloeit roze, net als veel andere nu bloeiende Prunus-hybriden.

Ik ben het met Nardo eens dat het hier een Prunus cerasus betreft.

Groet Martin

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-03-14 06:28:03, a dit:
Sorry tikfoutje op de vroege morgen niet cerasus (zure kers) maar Prunus cerasifera (kerspruim)!! Martin

Conifers, à 2014-03-14 16:23:01, a dit:
I agree with Prunus cerasifera, the crown shape also fits.

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-06 17:54:56, a dit:
This tree interests me because the bark is very different from the Prunus cerasifera that grows in Britain (the crown is also broader and fuller and the blossom more profuse). If I had to give it a name I would plump for Prunus x dasycarpa (Black Apricot), but this is a rare tree in Britain and I have only studied a few, in big collections.

Nardo Kaandorp, à 2014-04-07 19:41:50, a dit:
Hello Owen,

You could well be right. Wim mentioned that the owner of the tree has tasty & sweet fruits from this tree. I think we need more details on the leeves and fruits to be sure.

Rgds, Nardo

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-07 19:53:19, a dit:
I'll post everything I have on the tree. Cannot do anything more. Hope it will clear out.


Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-07 20:08:22, a dit:
Cannot deliver any addition.

papagan1950, à 2014-04-05 09:36:43, a dit:
erg mooie boom erg groot vindt ik mooi
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-05 16:44:35, a dit:
Helemaal mee eens. Dit is zeker voor Zuid-Holland een bijzondere boom, want er zijn niet zoveel oude tamme kastanjes.
papagan1950, à 2014-04-05 16:56:48, a dit:
Ik heb vorig jaar oktober 2013 tamme kastanje gevonden aan de oranjesluisweg gem

Westland heb er wat in de grond gestop op het balkon nu zijn er 5 op gekomen Thom

papagan1950, à 2014-04-05 16:58:53, a dit:
Daar staat ook een tamme kastanje boom gewoon bij mensen in de tuin
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-05 18:19:09, a dit:
Let wel, die tamme kastanjes kunnen groot worden. Maar als de ruimte er voor is, kun je later de tamme kastanjes poffen. Als je ooit met je ouders of wie dan ook in Brussel bent, moet je maar een gepofte kastanjes aan een kraampje bestellen. Vooral s' winters. Erg lekker. Een specialiteit daar.
papagan1950, à 2014-04-05 19:35:35, a dit:
Ik heb gezien op het voormalig landgoed Marlot heb je ook een heel oude tamme kastanje staan omtrek 4,12m hoogte 22,40
papagan1950, à 2014-04-07 16:31:09, a dit:
Ik heb gezien dat erbij mij 8 tamme kastanje zijn opgekomen. en 4 walnoten en beukennoot Thom moet je warm houd?

Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-03 19:03:54, a dit:
dit is een Prunus serrulata, een prachtige enkelbloemige cultivar, maar ik weet niet welke, Leo

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-03 19:47:09, a dit:
Hi Leo Ik heb hem gewoon gewijzigd. Nadere specificatie kan kater nog. Maar ik vond het ook een fantastische boom.

TheTreeRegisterOwenJohnson, à 2014-04-06 16:41:34, a dit:
Prunus x yedoensis

Rayn, à 2014-04-06 08:50:10, édité à 2014-04-06 08:54:28, a dit:
Mooie structuur op de boomstam
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-06 09:55:17, a dit:
Ik zal een foto zoeken waarin dat nog beter tot zijn recht komt. Ik vind het ook een fraaie boom.
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-06 12:20:38, a dit:

Ik heb zojuist een foto geplaatst waarin de structuur ook nog eens maximaal door de zon wordt belicht.


Wim Brinkerink

Rayn, à 2014-04-06 15:17:34, a dit:
Thank you! Indeed a beautiful tree.

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-06 08:27:45, a dit:

Deze appel blijft me nog even bezig houden. Kunnen we er eens langs? Als het M. Hupehensis is dan komen er binnenkort paarsroze bloemknoppen in. De bloemen openen lichtroze om snel naar wit te verbloemen. In jouw foto's zie ik dat beeld niet. Eind april zou hij volop in bloei moeten komen in dit vroege jaar. Veel appels laten een roze bloemknop zien, dus een echt witte bloemknop kan determineren helpen.

Groet, Martin

Ps: zag dat je ook in het Citadelpark in Gent was. Wat een mooie collectie aan bijzondere bomen in een platanenbos is dat.

Leo Goudzwaard, à 2014-04-06 10:08:45, a dit:
hallo Wim en Martin, beide soorten M. hupehensis en M. baccata lijken erg op elkaar en zijn ook nog variabel. Beide hebben bloemen die voor het openen lichtroze tot paarsroze zijn, en daarna wit. Vruchten zijn rood tot geel. Volgens Dendrologie van de Lage Landen zit het verschil in het aantal stijlen: 2 bij M. hupehensis en 3 bij M. baccata, en de kelkbladen: even lang of korter dan de bloembodem bij M. hupehensis en meestal langer dan de bloembodem bij M. baccata. groet, Leo

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-06 12:31:18, a dit:
Hallo Martin,

Lijkt me prima om samen te gaan kijken. Maar vooralsnog zag ik geen enkel tegen van bloei. !Maar wellicht zie jij al meer zonder bloei. Je weet dat ik niet meer werk, dus ik kan vrij vaak. Als je me wat datavoorstellen doen kunnen we iets vastzetten. We kunnen dan eventueel nog wat andere plekken bekijken. Ik maak een klein voorbehoud voor één van de komende vrijdagen. Overigens ben ik nog nooit in het Citadelpark in Gent geweest. Ik zag wel dat Wim Peters onze Belgische vriend daar is geweest evenals Tim.


Wim Brinkerink

En Leo,

Dank voor de extra info. het zou mij echter zeer verbazen als deze bomen dit voorjaar nog in bloei komen.

Frank Gyssling, à 2014-04-03 09:21:51, a dit:
Hier hat sich wieder mein "Abwerter" gemeldet.

Das ist ein historisch bedeutsamer Baum an historischer Stääte, gepflanzt anlässlich der Vereinigung Deutschlands! (siehe Kommentar zum Herbst-Foto).

Frank Gyssling, à 2014-04-03 09:33:06, a dit:
Ich bin gespannt ob sich der Erstbewerter einmal meldet und seine Note kommentiert.
Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-03 12:04:05, édité à 2014-04-03 12:47:20, a dit:
Hi Frank, This time I agree with the rating, allthough I myself will not rate it. My preference is nice and beautiful trees of some monumentality.For me the picture is the most important and not the height of a tree or whatever record might be broken.

I like your picture but I think the composition could be better. In my opinion the tree should be dominant and to be seen completely. This composition gives too much weight to the bridge as if that is the object of intrest. I like the idea of the bridge in the background, but it should be less dominant. So I wouldnt rate above 3 and than I do not rate it, Unless it has an average score of above 4,25.

Wim Brinkerink

Frank Gyssling, à 2014-04-03 15:01:02, a dit:
Tank you for your friendly opinion.

best wishes frank

Martin Tijdgat, à 2014-04-03 23:47:12, a dit:
Hai Frank,

I did rate this picture first. My comment is almost the same as Wim wrote as a comment. I think the tree should be more dominant in this picture and more complete to rate it higher than I did. I do rate a lot of pictures in MT in this way. I also try to rate the photo's for their technical skils

Greetings, Martin Tijdgat

KoutaR, à 2014-04-04 12:20:08, a dit:
Hello Frank,

Die Komposition ist super, wie in deinen Fotos immer, aber da MT eine Baumseite ist, könnte der Baum wirklich ein Bisschen mehr Gewicht haben.

Frank Gyssling, à 2014-04-04 17:09:21, a dit:
Ja, da hast du prizipiell recht. Aber ich wollte der weltbekannten Glienicker Brücke, welche als Pflanzort hier bewust anlässlich des Falls des "Eisernen Vorhangs" gewählt wurde etwas Raum geben. Das können naturgemäß wir Deutsche besonders gut verstehen. Ich bin direkt an dieser furchbaren Grenze aufgewachsen. Insbesondere dieser Baum hat für uns einen hohen symbolischen Wert und ich hoffe sehr, er wird reletiv alt und mahnt uns immer Diktaturen ernergisch zu begegnen.

Vergleichbar wäre ev. dieser noch so junge Baum mit den vielen "Kaiser- od. Königs-Eichen bzw. -Linden die wir nicht nur in Deutschland kennen.

viele Grüße Frank

Conifers, à 2014-04-04 21:44:53, a dit:
What I find odd with this tree is the choice of species, a very short-lived one, to commemorate such a momentous event of history. Sadly, the tree will likely be dead while there are still people alive who remember the event. I saw it was a gift from Japan, maybe a long-lived species like Sugi (Cryptomeria japonica) or Keaki (Zelkova serrata) would have been a better choice?

The photo composition (unless truly dreadful!) doesn't matter to me in giving a rating, this is after all a site about monumental trees, not monumental photographs. It is a nice pic for balance of subjects (though a bit over-saturated*), but what matters to me in rating is the monumentality of the tree itself.

* (something I've noticed with many of Frank's photos, perhaps the camera settings need adjusting slightly so as to reflect actual colours better?)

KoutaR, à 2014-04-05 11:18:46, a dit:
About the saturations: I think it's only that tastes differ. What someone regards as over-saturated, is a stunning photo to another. And what is natural for the first person, is boring to the second.
Frank Gyssling, à 2014-04-05 13:01:06, a dit:

I wish a little more tolerance of conifers to other opininons and a correspeonding rating. He always finds something to criticize. He should better more owne trees present of MT.

Greetings Frank

Jeroen Philippona, à 2014-04-05 23:40:51, édité à 2014-04-06 12:19:20, a dit:
It seems that several of the frequent users of this website still have completely different opinions about what is important at the website, what are beautiful or important trees and what are beautiful or good photographs.

The same discussions can be seen many times again but there seems to be little understanding of each other.

I like to repeat that Tim Bekaert did start the photo-rating system to rate the quality of the photos, just to get a good order in the photos of one tree so that the heighest rated photos would be on top and seen first.

Alas mr. Conifers has never understood this and still likes to give ratings of the monumentality of the trees themselves, wich never was the meaning of the system. The monumentality, importance or beauty of a tree is rather subjective and I don't like to make ratings of them. Everybody can have his own preference and it is clear that those differ a lot among the users.

Concerning the photograph by Frank of the Sargentkerselaar at Glienicker Brücke: to my opinion it is a very beautiful photo of an important subject. Indeed also a photo of the whole tree would be nice.


Jeroen Philippona

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-05 20:16:13, a dit:
23 mei 2013

Wim Brinkerink, à 2014-04-05 20:15:45, a dit:
5 april 2014


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