Karlheinz, Rainer and I will meet and measure trees on the 23th of June in the Exotenwald Weinheim, about halfway between Frankfurt and Karlsruhe, Germany. The Exotenwald is a 60 hectares forest arboretum with stands of Sequoiadendron, Metasequoia, Cedrus atlantica, Thuja plicata, Abies grandis, Calocedrus decurrens etc. Many stands are already 140 years old. Sequoiadendron has reached about 50-55 metres, we don't know yet exactly as the methods have been a bit obscure. But we are confident we will get good measurements in June.
The MT users are welcome! If you like to take part, please reply to this message or contact me.
Although for Kouta it is an even somewhat longer distance, for me it is too far to travel in one day twice (over 400 km and 4 hours driving 2 times).
I wish you all success!
We will go there on the 22th, stay overnight in Weinheim and explore the forest on the 23th.
I would be there if I wasn't on a holiday in England at that time. Enjoy yourselves and maybe I will see you another time.
Hello Wim, where are you planning to visit in England, any tree spotting involved, hope so?
Your measuring expedition sounds good guys but just abit too far for me as well. I have visited Germany in the past in passing on a tour (always wanted to visit the Alps and Bavaria, Neuschswanstein Castle was superb, but being completely honest did not really enjoy it as I am a vegetarian and Germany and Austria are not great places for vegetarians I found.
You cannot have it all. I strongly advice you to not let your personal preferences obstruct your other intrests. I really like Germany,it's nature, it's hospitality and the menus in the cafés, restaurants and hotels. I also like these things in England. I think it is wise to stick to the positive and not get sour because there are some aspects of life in any culture you don't agree.
As for my trip to England, I will be in Dover for 2 nights (and off course in Kent therefore), 4 nights in London , 7 nights southwest of London and 7 nights in Stratford upon avon. (Northwest of London near Birmingham) I have gathered a load of information on trees and Woods and as my wife will let me.....I will come back with a load of inspiring tree-inventories.
If you are in the neighbourhood we will have a beer or so.
Otherwise see you the next opportunity.
thanks for the invitation, I cannot join your group though it sounds interesting.
Hello Wim,(I do like your name Wim by the way, Wim Brinkerink really does roll off the tongue nicely) nothing about being sour, Germany and Austria have some beautiful countryside and very nice people but Yorkshire people have a saying, they call a 'spade a spade' don't pussyfoot about and tell the truth and I am one. I am not going to be liar, I tell the truth and call a spade a spade and in this case I have told the truth. If some of you guys come over here you would probably think the same with our food, Sisley for instance probably wouldn't think much to egg and chips or bangers and mash with the gourmet type food he may be used to in France (I imagine)
Wim, you probably have an itinerary already planned at the moment but I have studied up on alot of the trees on the Register and could give you some ideas if you like? I would love to see the B&I champion Aesculus Hippocastanum of 39 metres (this is probably on the conservative side as well as Owen always airs on the conservative side) near Arundel Castle for instance (visited Arundel about eight years ago but didn't know that this was here and wasn't measuring trees at that time either), Polecat Copse at Haslemere is also superb, the Douglas Firs will now be 55 metres plus as they were 54 a few years ago, it is a superb valley with Surrey's tallest trees. Some photographs of these trees would be great as well. Petworth Park also has some superb old Oaks and other trees.
Thank you for your tips. And don’t misunderstand me; I like it when you speak off your mind. I can handle it. I like it when people say what they think. The problem is that sometimes this communication on paper can lead to misunderstandings. Never mind. We can ask each other the exact intentions.
I will study what you suggest. I do not have a complete Itinerary yet. You know, my wife is there with me and I have to be flexible. If it were only me, it would be simple.
So my strategy is to have a lot of information and see at the moment which trees or woods I can visit. I want to keep my wife interested and not over ask her.
I do have a lot of books. For England, I have; Hidden trees by Archie Miles, Heritage trees by Stokes and Rodger, several books of Thomas Pakenham and off course Champion trees by Owen Johnson. I even have some very old books about walks in the woods written by Gerald Wilkinson.
I could fill a year with their suggestions. Nevertheless, I will give your suggestions some extra attention. But remember, I see a different focus here on MT. Some are especially in woods and height records; some are interested in form and eccentricity.
My aim starts with the image of the single tree. Trunk, bowl and photographic impact are the most important things for me.
Wim, short and sweet, ROB, Rip off Britain!
Petworth Park I would say a definite for you Wim with your criteria, never visited myself but what I have been told about the place with it's old trees.
Wim and Rob,
In fact this item is way off the original topic, wich was "Meeting in the Exotenwald". But Rob is right: Petworth is very nice, lots of beautiful oaks and sweet chestnuts and some other trees, see:http://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/gbr/england/westsussex/974_petworthpark/ or my old website, Dutch version:http://www.bomeninfo.nl/engeland4.htm or English version:http://www.bomeninfo.nl/english13c.htm .
Nearby is also Cowdray Park, wich is less easy to see as a whole but has several impressive big old trees, among wich the very old Queen Elizabeth Sessile Oak (one of the 50 'Heritage Trees'of the UK) and two of the largest Sweet Chestnuts of the UK, see:http://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/gbr/england/westsussex/975_cowdraypark/http://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/gbr/england/westsussex/975_cowdraypark/ and http://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/gbr/england/westsussex/963_cowdrayhomefarms/ , see also
Some fine trees there, thanks for the links Jeroen. My sister used to live at Woking and many times have we driven down the narrow streets of Petworth but I never actually made a visit to the place. The Chestnuts are impressive, I took some very similar trunk photos of the Studley chestnuts so may upload some of them.
Nice to put a face to a name Tim.
Here two other photos of Tim: http://www.monumentaltrees.com/db/01/full/01011.jpg
. At this last photo with a group of tree measurers and - lovers lunching under the tallest known oak of Belgium after measuring by climbing the tallest known beech of the same country. At left Tim, beside him Marc Meyer, then some Dutch climbers and Belgian forest researchers, in front of the trunk Leo Goudzwaard and second from right Han van Meegeren, the named persons all very active at MT.
I was in Weinheim a few years ago. It's really worth the trip. Besides of the exotic trees, there was also a really big and tall common ash. And when you're in Weinheim, be sure to visit the castle and the old cedrus libani and ginkgos.
I am looking forward to your results.
Thanks Jeroen, a close up photograph of myself standing near a tree would probably crack people's computer screen.
With another new user of the Forestry Pro it will be interesting to compare experiences. From my own experience, another note that I would like to add, report with the this laser (it is probably the same with all the lasers)is that if you use it heavily and continually, re-taking measurements uninterupted, it begins to give odd and inconsistant readings. I don't think that this is any fault with the laser but drain on the Lithium CR2 battery but it is something that wants remembering. I do tend to make multiple measurements with important trees and this is when I have noticed this. Let the laser go off and leave for a few minutes and it is fine again.
I have never used the 3 point measurement system.
The Distant Priority mode as said before, I am not convinced that this works through my own useage, the beam still hits and records from the first thing it hits I have found. I wouldn't trust it anyway.
Any other comments or experiences relating to this laser I would be interested to hear.
ich habe bei meinem Forestry Pro so etwas noch nicht bemerkt. Ich bin mir jetzt aber auch nicht ganz sicher, ob ich dich richtig verstanden habe. Was mir hinsichtlich Batterie aufgefallen ist. Meine war bereits nach knapp 5 Monaten leer. Beim Vorgängermodell, dem Forestry 550, hat bei mir die Batterie knapp ein Jahr gehalten.
Replying to this
I have not noticed anything with my Forestry Pro. But now I'm not quite sure if I understood you correctly. What struck me regarding battery. Mine was already after just 5 months empty. The previous model, the Forestry 550, for me, the battery has just held for a year.(Rainer)
Die gleichen Ergebnisse wie ich, habe meine ersten CR2 Batterie nicht lange und erwischte mich heraus, dass es so schnell abgelaufen, war ich nicht Transport eines Ersatz. Ich jetzt tragen zwei Ersatzteile. Ich habe eher eine Menge Kontrolle und mehrere Höhenbestimmung von Bäumen besonders die wichtigen tun und es macht die Batterie entladen, und es beginnt zu geben mis-Lesungen.
The same findings as myself, my first CR2 battery did not last long and caught me out it expired so quickly, I wasn't carrying a spare. I now carry two spares. I do tend to do alot of checking and multiple heighting of trees particulary the important ones and it does drain the battery and it starts give mis-readings.
vor ein paar Wochen war ich auf Baumtour. Als ich den ersten Baum messen wollte, stellte ich fest, dass die Batterie leer ist. Obwohl das Nikon erst knapp 5 Monate alt ist. Zum Glück habe ich in einem großen Lebensmittelladen gleich eine neue Batterie gefunden, so dass ich die Bäume doch noch messen konnte. Mir ist allerdings bei den letzten Messungen vor dem Ausfall nicht aufgefallen, dass die Batterie fast leer ist. Wird ja im Display eigentlich angezeigt.
A few weeks ago I was on tour tree. When I tried to measure the first tree, I realized that the battery is empty. Although the Nikon is only about 5 months old. Luckily, I immediately found a new battery in a large grocery store, so I still was able to measure the trees. I am, however, not noticed at the last measurement before the failure, the battery is almost empty. If yes actually displayed on the screen.
Agree with Rainer's comments here, there is a little battery visible in the viewfinder which is supposed to drop bars as the battery runs low but it didn't/doesn't do it on my laser, the battery/ies just expire suddenly without warning.
Vereinbaren Sie mit Rainer Kommentare hier, gibt es eine kleine grüne Batterie sichtbar im Sucher, die angeblich Bars fallen, wenn die Batterie zur Neige geht, aber es ist nicht / nicht tun es auf meinem Laser, die Batterie / n nur plötzlich verfallen Warnung
Yes, I should have warned you to take always a reserve battery with you. Indeed the laser rangefinder just stops working without warning at the screen. I had it the first time when I was on a measuring trip far from home and far from a shop.
To my experience the batteries work very different between 3 months and over a year, with rather intensive use.
I never experience very inconsistant results, but with very cold, winter weather it works less good.
best way to increase accuracy is to compare your laser measurements with tapemeasurements from a building. JPh and I noticed that we the douglas fir we measured 50-50.3 metres tall, was in fact after climbing and after tape-drop was only 49,75. So make at least 10 measurements on important tall trees, and disregard the maximum values, then make an average. Then, the results are reliable,
I am currently having a very interesting experience measuring a group of trees. They are on my way home from work when I visit a place called Selby and I have stopped and had several measuring sessions and I am getting the same consistant measurements but inconsistant measurements?! It sounds abit double dutch really, no offence intended, just a saying over here of confusion at times, but it isn't. I think I know what is happening really and it may be what Kouta? once reported when he made some measurements. They are significant trees as the height will pip the B&I record for this tree species.
When measuring these trees, the highest height you get is the apex tip on a great many occasions. This is why I sometimes get battery drain, hovering the laser + over the apex tip trying to hit it on the very end and ending up with multiple no-readings. The ranges I give for heights are usually a lower one which is a banker height at a solid part of the higher tip to the very apex tip attempts.
Hi all poeple !
Anyone can explane to me, the basic principle of operation for the three-point measurement.
I don't imagine the method, I always measure with forestry 550 in two points.
The 3-point routine:
Distance to the nearest point at the trunk (D), and angles to the top (t) and the base (b).
The height is D * tan t + D * tan b. Note that if the tree is leaning the result is incorrect (like this image shows:http://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/photos/17217/)
Hope this helps.
Volgens mij horen deze hier ook niet thuis.
Tim is zijn website oorspronkelijk natuurlijk begonnen als een mammoetbomensite, op alle aspecten van de soort gericht, waaronder ook het kweken van jonge bomen. Later begon hij met MT, maar omdat hij daarop ook de oude site kopieerde, is dat aspect nog steeds aanwezig, inclusief een groot aantal jonge exemplaren.
Tim moet maar beoordelen wat hij hiermee wil.
It's curious that Owen Johnson's tree register doesn't mention this champion horse chestnut. Under the chapter Sussex (in Gazetteer) there is one mentioning "near Arundel; Arundel Castle, bull bay (Magnolia grandiflora) 12 x 64 in 1997, near town gate."
Nevertheless you've made me curious. Perhaps I will find time to visit it. Furthermore I see a big difference in English and continent tourism. In England they want money for every step you take (read every visit). That's not so in Germany and France. Is England more capitalistic or should I say market-oriented?
Meant to say, Arundel is a very nice place with alot of little crafty type shops and an impressive castle, I imagine Mrs B wouldn't mind have a wander about here.
As Rob told, the tallest horse chestnut near Arundel is in the book Champion trees (page 52 on top right) as well as in the members only section of the website of the Tree Register.
Thanks for your comment. And while I was starting to write this mail and saying that it doesn't have the proportions Rob suggested........it suddenly occured to me that Rob is more interested in height and it is a very high tree for a chestnut. !! The girth is 143 x 3,14 (143metres as the diameter)and the height is 39 metres. And that was in 2007. So I understand the enthusiasm of Rob.
Wim, if you do decide to visit would you be able to re-measure it if you can find it? It may have nudged to 40 metres as it appears to be in a ravine from the landranger map. Am I right in thinking that this is a European champion for Horse Chestnut, anyone know what the tallest for species is anywhere, world?
When I will make it to the place and find it I will surely measure it Rob.
Thank you Wim, no pressure whatsoever but if you do make it that way, looking forward to seeing your photos and reading about your experience and results.
Hi Wim and Rob,
While I am intending to visit Southern England as well in July I may also visit Arundel. But as Owen lives in Sussex, he may very well measure the height of this Horse Chestnut himself again. What kind of laser does he use?
Any plans Leo or Jeroen to re-measure this tree with the laser, has it nudged past 50 metres now giving the Netherlands a 50 metre tree?
There are no such plans. Measuring with the laser is not so easy, as the tree stands in dense undergrowth so from the meadow outside the bush it is difficult to get an exact height of the foot of the tree. We measured it several times as 50 and even 50.3 m with laser, but that was thinking the foot was at the same level as we in the meadow, but actually the tree stands between 30 and 50 cm higher.
From the path inside the small forest and only a few meters from the trunk it is difficult to hit the tallest top and we got never the best results.
But next time I am there I will try to measure it again with laser, to see if looks like it has grown taller. To confirm that somebody should climb it again.
we could climb the tree again maybe, if we can get permission of the owner, I have found a professional climber who is willing to do it.
I have never seen the Walnuts so late as they are this year, this photo was taken this afternoon and the leaves are just unfurling and not yet fully out. How does this compare with elsewhere, at what date were the Walnut trees at this stage in Germany, France, Newcastle area etc? I like to get a human figure in my photos but had to make do with a sheep standing next to the tree.
Very nice and tall Walnut! In Holland the trees are just as late this year because of the very cold weather. The walnuts are among the latest, but exotics like Gleditsia, Catalpa and Ailanthus are even later.
Not much difference really then Jeroen this year between the Netherlands and Yorkshire. I thought that this tree deserved another photo, it is just short of the B&I record of 27 metres but I have another one which I am waiting to measure when it has full foliage which looks as big as this one.
Very tall holly! Who has measured the "22 metre Holly at Brampton Bryan Park"? Do you know, which method did he use?
Hello Kouta, Register doesn't say, just says it is a tall, straight Holly in a Quarry. The Holly at Fountains is hidden when the trees are in full leaf, I completely missed it. I don't visit Fountains in the winter as it always looks at it's best when the leaves are out but I visited at the beginning of last month and the trees are so late this year that most were still leafless and I spotted this dark figure of a tree, scrambled up to it and found this superb Holly.
To know something about the trees in the Tree Register of the British Isles you can mail them at email@example.com. I will give you the addresses of the Director David Alderman and the Registrar Owen Johnson also.
Yes it is !!
Fine found !
The only tall hollow tree I found was in Germany, but in Corsia (Stella forest / North-east of island)are a grove of this species, composed by specimens with girth and heights between 2,5-3,15 and 15-25 m.
The method of measure is not written and the years of datas is around 1998-2000.
I don't know the limits of this species, but 25 m is already a nice height.
I think Owen is off on one of his measuring trips, Scotland I suspect, at the moment but I can ask him about that Holly if anyone is interested enough. An awful lot of the measurements were reported pre laser or just with distance lasers with separate angle measuring instrument Owen has told me so what this one was? I have just re-measured several trees now on the Register which are no-where near the height originally reported, not with the Forestry Pro anyway. I will stick a few on here anyway at some point.
Eén van julie tweeën moet er toch 2 m naast zitten of hebben jullie verschillende bomen onder handen genomen?
Ik waardeer Han zeer, maar ik ben bang dat hij een momentje minder zorgvuldig is geweest. Ik heb echt opgelet en gedubblechecqued. Normaal zou ik niet eens een populier opvoeren. Maar in deze situatie en van deze afmeting streek ik mijn hand over mijn hart. Desalniettemin blijft het een lawaaiboom en niet echt vermeldenswaard.
Beetje brandhout dus. .
Very nice Black Poplar you have found again! Along the Danube in Austria and Hungary seem to be the most big old Black Poplars in Europe, although we don't know what can be found in Russia and Ukraine.
It would be nice if you were able to measure the heights, but the Nikon lasers are with € 300,- rather expensive, I agree.
If I find a 75 m high tree in Austria, then I start to measure exactly, but better I call You or Kouta to do it.
In between I need only a rough estimate for that trees I know about.
Hi Karlheinz and Kouta,
Congratulations with the finding of these extreme tall beeches, even a heightrecord for native broadleaved trees, although we have to go back with a good team (you two, Sisley, Michael Spraggon and I) to some of the French forests for Sessile oak! Are those two trees outstanding in the forest or are there more beeches as tall? I would like to see more information on the location as a whole, the soil, inclination, climate, history, etc. Also I hope you will send the information and photos about 'Kleinengelein' also to MT.
By the way: how did you know about these extreme tall beechforest? Are there more very tall beechforests in this part of Germany?
With your findings the earlier reports of beech of 50 to 52 m tall in several countries are not so strange anymore. The tallest measurement I have seen for beech was 54 m in Romania. Not anymore so unreachable than we thought till recently!
I agree with Jeroen. Exciting to see that discoveries are still being made!
Thank you Jeroen & Tim for congratulations and Karlheinz for finding this super grove!
The whole grove is full of extremely tall beeches. As they already had leaves, we were able to measure only a few of them. We must do a new trip next spring. The grove is small, only perhaps 300-500 m long and the tallest trees are confined to the very bottom of the valley. The strangest thing is that it appears to be a normal managed forest! Though the tallest tree is so thick that it has likely been "protected" by the foresters. Some good sized trees had just been felled and ashes been planted. The place must have some exceptional qualities (think how thin is the 47.2-metre tree!).
It is a west-east positioned valley at an elevation of 200 m. The soil is likely fertile brown earth formed from loess. Annual rainfall is 700-800 mm. We don't know much about the place, but Karlheinz has contacted foresters, the town mayor and local press. We hope he gets more information.
Karlheinz found the grove by chance but according to the information, he has got, it was already known that the beeches are exceptionally tall, although they haven't likely been measured accurately. If there are other super-groves nearby, we don't know.
Thanks for this datas about beeches trees !
In a few years, I believed that the beeches reach only to 40 m or just a little more and now we found specimens around 50 m.
As Jeroen says, it's not impossible that we measure a day, specimens over 50 m and now I ask me what is the maximum for this species.
Recently, many records was found for many species, it's good for our data base and the global searching.
I am fairly sure the potential height maximum for European beech is over 50 m. Another question is, if there are over-50-metre beeches left nowadays. Think how little there are natural forests in the lowland beech forest area in Europe! And the best and most fertile sites are almost exclusively under agriculture or at least commercial forestry.
After receiving further information, particularly from the district forester, I have now completed a description of the location at the German language page.
Measurements on other trees of this location are indicated! It is not excluded that there are taller beeches in this grove. The 50 m mark is to crack!
Congratulations Kouta and Karlheinz on finding and measuring these trees, amazingly slim trunks on some of them for such tall trees. Is this area pretty sheltered and not prone to consistant winds? I cannot imagine trees of this height with such slim trunks surviving very long over here in Blighty, we just seem to be having none stop winds these days, every day. Is your 49.3 metres to the very tip of the leading shoot of the Beech, could you see the top of the crown and the very leading shoot? I have found the whippy, thin leading shoot tips of Beech very difficult to hit with the laser (Nikon Forestry Pro)I am using and have given up on some trees, recording a reading slightly lower down banker reading where the laser beam can hit the denser crown.
The beeches grow on a valley bottom, so they are sheltered from wind, though the valley is not deep. The height is as close to the tip as possible; if not to the VERY tip, then at least very near.