When I press on 'Show on Map' the Google Map is close with individual trees visible. Press to change the location the map has panned out and I cannot get it to zoom in, I have to just stick a red bubble. Conifers, would you be able to put this directly in front of the 65 metre tree.
Zooming in now, intermittant problem.
Thank you Conifers, able to move them to the exact spot once you have stuck them near.
European beech at Trollskog in Torna Hällestad, Dalby, Sweden
A technical point: as these trees are seed-grown (self-sown), they are Fagus sylvatica f. tortuosa, and not the cultivar 'Suenteliensis', which to be true to name can only be propagated clonally by grafting.
Thanks for this. You are absolutely right; this is the naturaly occuring forma tortuosa. I had the same type of discussion with Fagus sylvatica 'Asplenifolia'.or 'Laciniata'. This leafform also occurs naturaly and has been grafted under a few different names.
Thanks, that's true, it's not a clone. I changed name. New problem: I cannot get a small "f" before tortuosa. The system automatically generates a capital F. Will ask Tim to change it. But what must we think about the oak, MT nr. 18706? :)
I changed the cultivar 'Tortuosa' in subsp. tortuosa, and registered this tree as such.
I also made it so that cultivars/varieties always get a capital letter (as was the case), but subspecies don't.
Thanks! A bit of clarification though, re "I also made it so that cultivars/varieties always get a capital letter (as was the case), but subspecies don't".
The ranks of subspecies, variety and forma are botanical, and governed by the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature; they are always in italics and begin with a lower case letter, and must always show an indication of which rank is being used (the rank NOT in italics!):
Pinus nigra subsp. salzmannii
Pinus sylvestris var. hamata
Fagus sylvatica f. tortuosa
Cultivars, and cultivar groups, are governed by the International Code for Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants; they are not in italics, and begin with a capital; individual cultivars are in single quotes, groups of similar cultivars not in quotes:
Acer platanoides 'Crimson King'
Acer palmatum Dissectum Group
Hope this helps!
Need abit of help with this one, more photos available if required. The trunk pattern didn't seem smooth enough for Abies Grandis, the foliage not flat enough and the shape not quite right for conventional Grandis that I have seen? What is this tree?
The bark looks OK to me for Abies grandis, it gets like this on mature trees. What foliage was it you looked at, if it was windblown upper crown foliage, then that's normal for the needles to be more assurgent.
Hello Conifers, the tree had lower branches sweeping down and I photographed the foliage close up which I have posted if you look at all the photos. Not seen any really big, old Grand Firs as close up as this so not seen the ribbed bark like this before. The terminal foliage on the shoot ends around the buds also seemed abit more rounded than other Grand Firs that I have seen but maybe this is with age as well, I suppose it is what you have seen yourself which you compare to.
Thanks! What the foliage does fit in that case is the interior subspecies Abies grandis subsp. idahoensis (from east of the Cascades crest); this has somewhat assurgent foliage throughout the crown, not just at the top of the tree. The only problem with this is that it is a smaller, slower-growing tree than coastal subsp. grandis, a 50 metre specimen would have to be ancient.
Abies grandis subsp. idahoensis grades into Abies concolor in the south of its area, including (in the southwest of its area) into Abies concolor subsp. lowiana, which is also a large, fairly vigorous tree (though not as vigorous as subsp. grandis). But it does perhaps offer a potential source location in the southern Cascades in Oregon.
It might be worth contacting the FC to see if they have planting records for the plot. A lot of the older plantings of Abies grandis in Britain are of the interior subspecies (being smaller, it was much cheaper to collect the seed!), before foresters discovered how much slower and poorer its growth was compared to coastal origins.
Hello Conifers, I had never heard of Idahoensis, learn something new every day. From reading the description it does describe these trees, the foliage just didn't seem flat enough for conventional Grand Fir (quote 'stongly flattened' from one site) and it seemed to taper around the buds and recurve more than the usual Grandis (you can see it in the photos) which I have seen myself albeit I won't have seen as many examples as people like Kouta, yourself, Owen etc. Any comments from anyone else, Owen, Kouta, Jeroen, Karlheinz?
Just uploaded a further foliage photo of this tree taken up tree. As said, still might be wrongs but it just didn't look fully right for Abies Grandis, the rounded tapering recurving needles around the terminal buds.
Hi Red Rob and Conifers and all
I'm back after my busy summer!
Foliage is typical for Grand Fir east of the Cascades. Most seed imports into this country up to the 1960's were of this interior form. I remember seeing this tree last Sept, so 52m, yet another!!
Hello Stephen, welcome back, missed reading your posts. This does look like Idahoensis, this one wasn't even the tallest, that was 53 metres for the other one that I put on here the other day. Vyrnwy, cloud and mist was hanging over the lake and it may be fairly mild comparative here, would this mean that Idahoensis would possibly have more potential for growth here than east of the Cascades which I imagine is certainly colder in winter and drier?
Most of Grand Fir in the UK before the 1960's came from just east of the crest of the Cascades, little came from the actual Pacific Coast so most of the oldest and tallest are probably of inferior growth rate, but likely to grow faster in UK. I was not aware this has been regarded a sub species, is this recent?
I may go on holiday later this month to find some more giants, have you been on holiday there too?
Hello Stephen, are you going on holiday to the Pacific Northwest or to look for trees in this country? I was in North Wales and Powys last week but there are areas in central Wales that could have some tall trees if you want some ideas? The Elan Valley area, Alan Mitchell recorded 50 metre Douglas Firs there way back in 1979 I think it was. I have located some myself which I had hoped to visit but never made it down as far.
Hope to go back to North Wales if the weather holds out later this month. Find some big trees and maybe pan for some gold if there is time!
Perhaps try to look at the Elan Valley on the way but its quite far from North Wales.
How is the tall Douglas in the Conwy Valley doing? I left too late one evening and only saw them in darkness with the headlights on!
Hello Stephen, will be reporting on the Betws trees from this year's visit when I get around to it over the next few days.
Before I visited North Wales this year I spent a considerable time scouring the valleys of North Wales on Google Maps looking for dark shadows and long shadows from the satellite and then looking on Street View. Really don't think that there are any more really tall stands in the Snowdonia area, Coed Y Brenin, Conwy Valley, Vyrnwy, Aber Hirnant seem to be the places. I drove all over last week scanning various valleys in the Berwyns and up around Betws and didn't come across anything taller or anywhere near. I have been to the forests around Corris on a previous visit and the trees there are not exceptional. An area where there could be tall and unknown trees is central Wales, Elan Valley and further down, Twyi Forest and the forests near Llandridod Wells. Owen sent me the records but I cannot find them in my emails so I have just asked him again, Alan Mitchell recorded big Douglas Firs back in 1979 and if they have kept growing at a reasonable rate they could be pretty big now.
The estate at Llanwrthwl was called Glanrhos SN973641 Owen has informed me again.
https://maps.google.co.uk/ put Glanrhos estate into search. I have been up and down the lane and there is a group of tall conifers which look like Douglas Firs but they don't look super tall and are in an open, exposed position. Not sure if these will be the trees which Alan Mitchell recorded or not?
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2526900 This group in the Elan Valley is a group that I came across whilst searching, on Google Maps they do look pretty tall but there looks to be abit of distortion in the camera which may be fore-shortening them in height when viewed from the bridge. They are in the bottom of the valley so should be pretty sheltered. Stephen, if you do make it anywhere down this way in passing this group would be worth stopping at. I haver just been riding up and down roads in Tywi Forest and the A44 between Llanwrtyd and Abergwesyn and over towards Aberystwyth and had longer range views and the conifers look ordinary.
Elan valley looks interesting, it may be a bit far out to travel to North Wales, but I could do a detour.
Dyfi valley was an interesting place for big plantation grown conifers. Sadly as usual The FC felled the best stand of Hemlock about 10 years ago. With good soils and shelter the forest is very productive here.
It will be interesting to see how Dothistroma needle blight is progressing there in North Wales it was partly defoliating conifers and causing them to lose vigour.
Hope to make it back there if the weather remains good.
Hello Stephen, I really don't like to hear the talk about needle drop, especially connected with some more trees that I have yet to post on.
I have been up the Dyfi Valley on Google Maps and there is large scale felling viewable. If you put 'Pantperthog' into Google Maps and travel about a quarter of a mile north on the A487, there is a line of tall trees that I think may be Douglas Fir. Look big but not massive but abit hard to truly judge on Google Maps as I have seen distortion on some views. These are the tallest that I can find in this area, beautiful countryside though, wonderful smooth roads (as they all appear to be down there compared to the potholed lot we have up in Yorkshire) sweeping through deep, wooded valleys. Visited King Arthur's labyrinth at Corris in 2006 and it was great countryside.
If you want a nice little B&B Stephen, I can recommend one near the north end of Lake Bala, a little gem with great food and incredibly reasonable. It provided a great, central base for my visit.
Look forward to more posts on Welsh trees.
Remember to change the species to Abies grandis ;-)
Are these likely to be Abies Grandis Idahoensis? There are some more ten didn't quite look right for 'normal' Grandis, the crowns more rounded and lumpy, more similar in fact to the Vyrnwy trees.
Quite likely, yes.
Oh, and PS - where 'should' it be? The map does not show it anywhere near the B5105!